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Frequently Asked Questions (FAQS);faqs.160



  "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Jesus Christ
   came into the world to save sinners...  But for that very reason, I was
   shown mercy so that in me...  Jesus Christ might display His unlimited
   patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive
   eternal life.  Now to the king eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God,
   be honor and glory forever and ever."

The above quote is from a statement made to the court on February 17th 1992
by Jeffrey Dahmer, the notorious cannibal serial killer of Milwaukee,
Wisconsin.  It seems that for every atheist mass-murderer, there is a
religious mass-murderer.  But what of more trivial morality?

   A survey conducted by the Roper Organization found that behavior
   deteriorated after "born again" experiences.  While only 4% of respondents
   said they had driven intoxicated before being "born again," 12% had done
   so after conversion.  Similarly, 5% had used illegal drugs before
   conversion, 9% after.  Two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex
   before salvation; 5% after.
                                ["Freethought Today", September 1991, p. 12.]

So it seems that at best, religion does not have a monopoly on moral
behaviour.

"Is there such a thing as atheist morality?"

If you mean "Is there such a thing as morality for atheists?", then the
answer is yes, as explained above.  Many atheists have ideas about morality
which are at least as strong as those held by religious people.

If you mean "Does atheism have a characteristic moral code?", then the answer
is no.  Atheism by itself does not imply anything much about how a person
will behave.  Most atheists follow many of the same "moral rules" as theists,
but for different reasons.  Atheists view morality as something created by
humans, according to the way humans feel the world 'ought' to work, rather
than seeing it as a set of rules decreed by a supernatural being.

"Then aren't atheists just theists who are denying God?"

A study by the Freedom From Religion Foundation found that over 90% of the
atheists who responded became atheists because religion did not work for
them.  They had found that religious beliefs were fundamentally incompatible
with what they observed around them.

Atheists are not unbelievers through ignorance or denial; they are
unbelievers through choice.  The vast majority of them have spent time
studying one or more religions, sometimes in very great depth.  They have
made a careful and considered decision to reject religious beliefs.

"But don't atheists want to believe in God?"

Atheists live their lives as though there is nobody watching over them.  Many
of them have no desire to be watched over, no matter how good-natured the
"Big Brother" figure might be.

Some atheists would like to be able to believe in God -- but so what? Should
one believe things merely because one wants them to be true?  The risks of
such an approach should be obvious.  Atheists often decide that wanting to
believe something is not enough; there must be evidence for the belief.

"But of course atheists see no evidence for the existence of God -- they are
 unwilling in their souls to see!"

Many, if not most atheists were previously religious.  As has been explained
above, the vast majority have seriously considered the possibility that God
exists.  Many atheists have spent time in prayer trying to reach God.

Of course, it is true that some atheists lack an open mind; but assuming that
all atheists are biased and insincere is offensive and closed-minded.
Comments such as "Of course God is there, you just aren't looking properly"
are likely to be viewed as patronizing.

Certainly, if you wish to engage in philosophical debate with atheists it is
vital that you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are
being sincere if they say that they have searched for God.  If you are not
willing to believe that they are basically telling the truth, debate is
futile.

"Isn't the whole of life completely pointless to an atheist?"

Many atheists live a purposeful life.  They decide what they think gives
meaning to life, and they pursue those goals.  They try to make their lives
count, not by wishing for eternal life, but by having an influence on other
people who will live on.  For example, an atheist may dedicate his life to
political reform, in the hope of leaving his mark on history.

It is a natural human tendency to look for "meaning" or "purpose" in random
events.  However, it is by no means obvious that "life" is the sort of thing
that has a "meaning".

To put it another way, not everything which looks like a question is actually
a sensible thing to ask.  Some atheists believe that asking "What is the
meaning of life?" is as silly as asking "What is the meaning of a cup of
coffee?".  They believe that life has no purpose or meaning, it just is.

"So how do atheists find comfort in time of danger?"

There are many ways of obtaining comfort; from family, friends, or even pets.
Or on a less spiritual level, from food or drink or TV.

That may sound rather an empty and vulnerable way to face danger, but so
what?  Should individuals believe in things because they are comforting, or
should they face reality no matter how harsh it might be?

In the end, it's a decision for the individual concerned.  Most atheists are
unable to believe something they would not otherwise believe merely because
it makes them feel comfortable.  They put truth before comfort, and consider
that if searching for truth sometimes makes them feel unhappy, that's just
hard luck.

"Don't atheists worry that they might suddenly be shown to be wrong?"

The short answer is "No, do you?"

Many atheists have been atheists for years.  They have encountered many
arguments and much supposed evidence for the existence of God, but they have
found all of it to be invalid or inconclusive.

Thousands of years of religious belief haven't resulted in any good proof of
the existence of God.  Atheists therefore tend to feel that they are unlikely
to be proved wrong in the immediate future, and they stop worrying about it.

"So why should theists question their beliefs? Don't the same arguments
 apply?"

No, because the assertions being questioned are not similar.  Weak atheism is
the sceptical "default position" to take; it asserts nothing.  Strong atheism
is a negative assertion.  Theism is a very strong positive assertion.

Atheists sometimes also argue that theists should question their beliefs
because of the very real harm they can cause -- not just to the believers,
but to everyone else.

"What sort of harm?"

Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind.  It's not
just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings;
think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on.
Imagine how that effort could be better spent.

Many theists believe in miracle healing.  There have been plenty of instances
of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines
prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result.  Some theists have died
because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.

It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control -- and
condoms in particular -- is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many
third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.

Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than
allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different
religion.

"Those weren't REAL believers.  They just claimed to be believers as some
 sort of excuse."

What makes a real believer?  There are so many One True Religions it's hard
to tell.  Look at Christianity: there are many competing groups, all
convinced that they are the only true Christians.  Sometimes they even fight
and kill each other.  How is an atheist supposed to decide who's a REAL
Christian and who isn't, when even the major Christian churches like the
Catholic Church and the Church of England can't decide amongst themselves?

In the end, most atheists take a pragmatic view, and decide that anyone who
calls himself a Christian, and uses Christian belief or dogma to justify his
actions, should be considered a Christian.  Maybe some of those Christians
are just perverting Christian teaching for their own ends -- but surely if
the Bible can be so readily used to support un-Christian acts it can't be
much of a moral code? If the Bible is the word of God, why couldn't he have
made it less easy to misinterpret? And how do you know that your beliefs
aren't a perversion of what your God intended?

If there is no single unambiguous interpretation of the Bible, then why
should an atheist take one interpretation over another just on your say-so?
Sorry, but if someone claims that he believes in Jesus and that he murdered
others because Jesus and the Bible told him to do so, we must call him a
Christian.

"Obviously those extreme sorts of beliefs should be questioned.  But since
 nobody has ever proved that God does not exist, it must be very unlikely
 that more basic religious beliefs, shared by all faiths, are nonsense."

That does not hold, because as was pointed out at the start of this dialogue,
positive assertions concerning the existence of entities are inherently much
harder to disprove than negative ones.  Nobody has ever proved that unicorns
don't exist, but that doesn't make it unlikely that they are myths.

It is therefore much more valid to hold a negative assertion by default than
it is to hold a positive assertion by default.  Of course, "weak" atheists
would argue that asserting nothing is better still.

"Well, if atheism's so great, why are there so many theists?"

Unfortunately, the popularity of a belief has little to do with how "correct"
it is, or whether it "works"; consider how many people believe in astrology,
graphology, and other pseudo-sciences.

Many atheists feel that it is simply a human weakness to want to believe in
gods.  Certainly in many primitive human societies, religion allows the
people to deal with phenomena that they do not adequately understand.

Of course, there's more to religion than that.  In the industrialized world,
we find people believing in religious explanations of phenomena even when
there are perfectly adequate natural explanations.  Religion may have started
as a means of attempting to explain the world, but nowadays it serves other
purposes as well.

"But so many cultures have developed religions.  Surely that must say
 something?"

Not really.  Most religions are only superficially similar; for example, it's
worth remembering that religions such as Buddhism and Taoism lack any sort of
concept of God in the Christian sense.

Of course, most religions are quick to denounce competing religions, so it's
rather odd to use one religion to try and justify another.

"What about all the famous scientists and philosophers who have concluded
 that God exists?"

For every scientist or philosopher who believes in a god, there is one who
does not.  Besides, as has already been pointed out, the truth of a belief is
not determined by how many people believe it.  Also, it is important to
realise that atheists do not view famous scientists or philosophers in the
same way that theists view their religious leaders.

A famous scientist is only human; she may be an expert in some fields, but
when she talks about other matters her words carry no special weight.  Many
respected scientists have made themselves look foolish by speaking on
subjects which lie outside their fields of expertise.

"So are you really saying that widespread belief in religion indicates
 nothing?"

Not entirely.  It certainly indicates that the religion in question has
properties which have helped it so spread so far.

The theory of memetics talks of "memes" -- sets of ideas which can propagate
themselves between human minds, by analogy with genes.  Some atheists view
religions as sets of particularly successful parasitic memes, which spread by
encouraging their hosts to convert others.  Some memes avoid destruction by
discouraging believers from questioning doctrine, or by using peer pressure
to keep one-time believers from admitting that they were mistaken.  Some
religious memes even encourage their hosts to destroy hosts controlled by
other memes.

Of course, in the memetic view there is no particular virtue associated with
successful propagation of a meme.  Religion is not a good thing because of
the number of people who believe it, any more than a disease is a good thing
because of the number of people who have caught it.

"Even if religion is not entirely true, at least it puts across important
 messages.  What are the fundamental messages of atheism?"

There are many important ideas atheists promote.  The following are just a
few of them; don't be surprised to see ideas which are also present in some
religions.

   There is more to moral behaviour than mindlessly following rules.

   Be especially sceptical of positive claims.

   If you want your life to have some sort of meaning, it's up to you to
   find it.

   Search for what is true, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

   Make the most of your life, as it's probably the only one you'll have.

   It's no good relying on some external power to change you; you must change
   yourself.

   Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's good.

   If you must assume something, assume something it's easy to test.

   Don't believe things just because you want them to be true.

and finally (and most importantly):

   All beliefs should be open to question.

Thanks for taking the time to read this article.


mathew

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From: [e-mail] (mathew)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.atheism.moderated,news.answers
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Introduction for New Readers
Summary: Hi.  Please read this before you post.
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:12:52 GMT
Expires: Sat, 16 Jan 1993 11:12:52 GMT
Followup-To: alt.atheism
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Lines: 129
Approved: [e-mail]
Supersedes: <[e-mail]>

Archive-name: atheism/overview
Alt-atheism-archive-name: overview
Last-modified: 11 December 1992
Version: 1.0

                                 Introduction

Welcome to alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated.

This is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the
newsgroups.

Many groups of a 'controversial' nature have noticed that new readers often
come up with the same questions, mis-statements or misconceptions and post
them to the net.  In addition, people often request information which has
been posted time and time again.  In order to try and cut down on this, the
alt.atheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following
titles:

   1.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Introduction for New Readers
   2.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Introduction to Atheism
   3.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
   4.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Constructing a Logical Argument
   5.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Atheist Resources

This is article number 1.  Please read numbers 2 and 3 before posting.  The
others are entirely optional.

If you are new to Usenet, you may also find it helpful to read the newsgroup
news.announce.newusers.  The articles titled "A Primer on How to Work With
the Usenet Community", "Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Usenet"
and "Hints on writing style for Usenet" are particularly relevant.  Questions
concerning how news works are best asked in news.newusers.questions.

If you are unable to find any of the articles listed above, see the "Finding
Stuff" section below.


                                   Credits

These files could not have been written without the assistance of the many
readers of alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated.  In particular, I'd like to
thank the following people:

[e-mail] (Karl Kluge)
[e-mail] (Jim Perry)
[e-mail] (Wayne Aiken)
[e-mail] (Toby Kelsey)
[e-mail] (Jyrki Kuoppala)
[e-mail] (Geoff Arnold)
[e-mail] (Torkel Franzen)
[e-mail] (George Kimeldorf)
[e-mail] (Greg Roelofs)
[e-mail] (Ken Arromdee)
[e-mail] (Maddi Hausmann)
[e-mail] (John A. Johnson)
[e-mail] (Douglas Graham)
[e-mail] (William Mayne)
[e-mail] (Andy Rosen)
[e-mail] (Achim Stoesser)
[e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan)
[e-mail] (James J. Lippard)
[e-mail] (S. Baum)
[e-mail] (York H. Dobyns)
[e-mail] (Wayne Schroeder)
[e-mail] (J.D. Baldwin)

...and countless others I've forgotten.

These articles are free.  Truly free.  You may copy them and distribute them
to anyone you wish.  However, please send any changes or corrections to the
author, and please do not re-post copies of the articles to alt.atheism; it
does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating
around the network.


                                Finding Stuff

All of the FAQ files *should* be somewhere on your news system.  Here are
some suggestions on what to do if you can't find them:

1. Check the newsgroup alt.atheism.  Look for subject lines starting with
   "Alt.Atheism FAQ:".

2. Check the newsgroup news.answers for the same subject lines.

   If you don't find anything in steps 1 or 2, your news system isn't set up
   correctly, and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the
   problem.

3. If you have anonymous FTP access, connect to rtfm.mit.edu [18.172.1.27].
   Go to the directory /pub/usenet/alt.atheism, and you'll find the latest
   versions of the FAQ files there.

   FTP is a a way of copying files between networked computers.  If you
   need help in using or getting started with FTP, send e-mail to
   [e-mail] with

      send usenet/news.answers/ftp-list/faq

   in the body.

4. There are other sites which also carry news.answers postings.  The article
   "Introduction to the news.answers newsgroup" carries a list of these
   sites; the article is posted regularly to news.answers.

5. If you don't have FTP, send mail to [e-mail]
   consisting of the following lines:

      send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources
      send usenet/alt.atheism/faq
      send usenet/alt.atheism/introduction
      send usenet/alt.atheism/logic
      send usenet/alt.atheism/resources

5. (Penultimate resort)  Send mail to [e-mail] consisting of
   the following lines:

      send atheism/faq/faq.txt
      send atheism/faq/logic.txt
      send atheism/faq/intro.txt
      send atheism/faq/resource.txt

   and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files.
   There's other stuff, too; interesting commands to try are "help" and
   "send atheism/index".


mathew
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From: [e-mail] (mathew)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.atheism.moderated,news.answers
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Atheist Resources
Summary: Books, addresses, music -- anything related to atheism
Keywords: FAQ, atheism, books, music, fiction, addresses, contacts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:12:44 GMT
Expires: Sat, 16 Jan 1993 11:12:44 GMT
Followup-To: alt.atheism
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Lines: 270
Approved: [e-mail]
Supersedes: <[e-mail]>

Archive-name: atheism/resources
Alt-atheism-archive-name: resources
Last-modified: 11 December 1992
Version: 1.0

                              Atheist Resources

                      Addresses of Atheist Organizations

                                     USA

FREEDOM FROM RELIGION FOUNDATION

Darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are
available from the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the US.

Write to:  FFRF, P.O. Box 750, Madison, WI 53701.
Telephone: [phone]

EVOLUTION DESIGNS

Evolution Designs sell the "Darwin fish".  It's a fish symbol, like the ones
Christians stick on their cars, but with feet and the word "Darwin" written
inside.  The deluxe moulded 3D plastic fish is $4.95 postpaid in the US.

Write to:  Evolution Designs, 7119 Laurel Canyon #4, North Hollywood,
           CA 91605.

People in the San Francisco Bay area can get Darwin Fish from Lynn Gold
<[e-mail]>.  For net people who go to Lynn directly, the
price is $4.95 per fish.

AMERICAN ATHEIST PRESS

AAP publish various atheist books -- critiques of the Bible, lists of
Biblical contradictions, and so on.  One such book is:

"The Bible Handbook" by W.P. Ball and G.W. Foote.  American Atheist Press.
372 pp.  ISBN 0-910309-26-4, 2nd edition, 1986.  Bible contradictions,
absurdities, atrocities, immoralities... contains Ball, Foote: "The Bible
Contradicts Itself", AAP.  Based on the King James version of the Bible.

Write to:  American Atheist Press, P.O. Box 140195, Austin, TX 78714-0195.
      or:  7215 Cameron Road, Austin, TX 78752-2973.
Telephone: [phone]
Fax:       [phone]

PROMETHEUS BOOKS
Sell books including Haught's "Holy Horrors" (see below).

Write to:  700 East Amherst Street, Buffalo, New York 14215.
Telephone: [phone].

An alternate address (which may be newer or older) is:
Prometheus Books, 59 Glenn Drive, Buffalo, NY 14228-2197.

AFRICAN-AMERICANS FOR HUMANISM

An organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of
black freethought.  They publish a quarterly newsletter, AAH EXAMINER.

Write to:  Norm R. Allen, Jr., African Americans for Humanism, P.O. Box 664,
           Buffalo, NY 14226.

                                United Kingdom

Rationalist Press Association          National Secular Society
88 Islington High Street               702 Holloway Road
London N1 8EW                          London N19 3NL
071 226 7251                           071 272 1266

British Humanist Association           South Place Ethical Society
14 Lamb's Conduit Passage              Conway Hall
London WC1R 4RH                        Red Lion Square
071 430 0908                           London WC1R 4RL
fax [phone]                       071 831 7723

The National Secular Society publish "The Freethinker", a monthly magazine
founded in 1881.

                                   Germany

IBKA e.V.
Internationaler Bund der Konfessionslosen und Atheisten
Postfach 880, D-1000 Berlin 41. Germany.

IBKA publish a journal:
MIZ. (Materialien und Informationen zur Zeit. Politisches
Journal der Konfessionslosesn und Atheisten. Hrsg. IBKA e.V.)
MIZ-Vertrieb, Postfach 880, D-1000 Berlin 41. Germany.

For atheist books, write to:

IBDK, Internationaler B"ucherdienst der Konfessionslosen
Postfach 3005, D-3000 Hannover 1. Germany.
Telephone: [phone]


                               Books -- Fiction

THOMAS M. DISCH

"The Santa Claus Compromise"
Short story.  The ultimate proof that Santa exists.  All characters and
events are fictitious.  Any similarity to living or dead gods -- uh, well...

WALTER M. MILLER, JR

"A Canticle for Leibowitz"
One gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives
copying blueprints from "Saint Leibowitz", filling the sheets of paper with
ink and leaving white lines and letters.

EDGAR PANGBORN

"Davy"
Post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states.  The church, for example,
forbids that anyone "produce, describe or use any substance containing...
atoms".

PHILIP K. DICK

Philip K. Dick Dick wrote many philosophical and thought-provoking short
stories and novels.  His stories are bizarre at times, but very approachable.
He wrote mainly SF, but he wrote about people, truth and religion rather than
technology.  Although he often believed that he had met some sort of God, he
remained sceptical.  Amongst his novels, the following are of some relevance:

"Galactic Pot-Healer"
A fallible alien deity summons a group of Earth craftsmen and women to a
remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans.  When the
deity begins to demand faith from the earthers, pot-healer Joe Fernwright is
unable to comply.  A polished, ironic and amusing novel.

"A Maze of Death"
Noteworthy for its description of a technology-based religion.

"VALIS"
The schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of Gnostic
Christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of
unknown but possibly divine origin.  He is accompanied by his dogmatic and
dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters.

"The Divine Invasion"
God invades Earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from
another star system.  Unfortunately she is terminally ill, and must be
assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to 24-hour easy listening music.

VARIOUS AUTHORS

"The Bible"
This somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized.  However, it
is probably worth reading, if only so that you'll know what all the fuss is
about.  It exists in many different versions, so make sure you get the one
true version.

                             Books -- Non-fiction

PETER DE ROSA

"Vicars of Christ", Bantam Press, 1988
Although de Rosa seems to be Christian or even Catholic this is a very
enlighting history of papal immoralities, adulteries, fallacies etc.
(German translation: "Gottes erste Diener. Die dunkle Seite des Papsttums",
Droemer-Knaur, 1989)

MICHAEL MARTIN

"Atheism: A Philosophical Justification", Temple University Press,
 Philadelphia, USA.
A detailed and scholarly justification of atheism.  Contains an outstanding
appendix defining terminology and usage in this (necessarily) tendentious
area.  Argues both for "negative atheism" (i.e. the "non-belief in the
existence of god(s)") and also for "positive atheism" ("the belief in the
non-existence of god(s)").  Includes great refutations of the most
challenging arguments for god; particular attention is paid to refuting
contempory theists such as Platinga and Swinburne.
541 pages. ISBN 0-87722-642-3 (hardcover; paperback also available)

"The Case Against Christianity", Temple University Press
A comprehensive critique of Christianity, in which he considers
the best contemporary defences of Christianity and (ultimately)
demonstrates that they are unsupportable and/or incoherent.
273 pages. ISBN 0-87722-767-5

JAMES TURNER

"Without God, Without Creed", The Johns Hopkins University Press, Baltimore,
 MD, USA
Subtitled "The Origins of Unbelief in America".  Examines the way in which
unbelief (whether agnostic or atheistic)  became a mainstream alternative
world-view.  Focusses on the period 1770-1900, and while considering France
and Britain the emphasis is on American, and particularly New England
developments.  "Neither a religious history of secularization or atheism,
Without God, Without Creed is, rather, the intellectual history of the fate
of a single idea, the belief that God exists."
316 pages. ISBN (hardcover) 0-8018-2494-X (paper) 0-8018-3407-4

GEORGE SELDES (Editor)

"The great thoughts", Ballantine Books, New York, USA
A "dictionary of quotations" of a different kind, concentrating on statements
and writings which, explicitly or implicitly, present the person's philosophy
and world-view.  Includes obscure (and often suppressed) opinions from many
people.  For some popular observations, traces the way in which various
people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries.  Quite a number of
the quotations are derived from Cardiff's "What Great Men Think of Religion"
and Noyes' "Views of Religion".
490 pages. ISBN (paper) 0-345-29887-X.